Interview with Zana Goic Petricevic, PwC Academy: Coaching is the new language of leadership
Zana Goic Petricevic captivated me with the passionate way she talks about coaching and was one of the trainers at PwC Academy, the coaching school I started. If in the school sessions we talked a lot about coaching methods and techniques, in the interview I wanted to be the one to ask stronger questions to find out how we change the world through coaching, but also how one would coach with… humanity 🙂
Tell me how you decided to become a coach. When was the moment you said "Yes, that's what I want to be!"?
I didn't set out to do this from the beginning. I had just given birth, 6 months had already passed, and, because I was walking a lot at that time, I had time to reflect. I realized that this is the moment when I have to change something in my career. I worked in the corporate environment, I had advanced quite a lot, but I had projects that no longer fulfilled me. I was well paid, it was interesting, but something was missing. As I walked, I realized I was stuck. I said to myself, " I don't know what to do, I know I can do something else but I don't know what, so I'm going to need someone to help me gain clarity ."
Because I really liked London and had traveled there several times before, I decided to go to a coaching school. I searched online, and found the Co-Active Coaching Institute, with a 2-day program. I signed myself up and it was magic: I felt alive, I had a lot of clarity, I felt something I didn't feel for a long time. So I thought, if it makes me feel that way, I want it in my life. At that time I didn't know anything about coaching, but in those 6 months, the idea of becoming a coach matured. In the end, I had already made the decision to go for a certification and I decided that coaching is what I would practice.
How did you make the transition from "I'm studying to be a coach one day" to "I'm a coach", assuming that actual identity? It is a challenge that many beginners struggle with at first.
When I started the certification, I decided that I was a coach, even if I didn't have clients, I rented an office and I started to act like a coach. I wondered what training I needed, what mentors could help me and I communicated externally that this is the path I am on now. But, the most important thing was to make the decision to be 100% in this, not to simply flirt with coaching, but to develop something meaningful in parallel.
I had some savings and it was hard to invest in myself, to spend the money on something that, at that moment, just sounded good. But it was the best decision of my life. By 2018 I had a respectable coaching business and many active trainings.
How can a new coach build a brand in the industry?
By making a decision - if you feel alive when you do this, if you feel it's something that invites you, then call yourself a coach. It does not mean that I encourage someone to be called that after 2 days, but you can say that you are in training, to be determined and to practice courage, to say that you can already help, even during training. Give up " I'm not ready ", " I don't know if I know how " and be determined to serve the client, without neglecting the learning part.
How has coaching transformed the lives of your clients?
Coaching transforms your life depending on what you allow it to do for you. Some customers are more open, some less so. But clients who are determined, who come regularly, enter a 6-month or 1-year program, notice the change - in the end they are completely different. They become people who are not afraid to give feedback, who are not afraid to share their opinion, who know their values and do not compromise, who have become more sensitive to people, more empathetic and less transactional, are determined to learn everything. One leadership skill I love is being a personal learner, which is about how much a person actively learns about who they can become, who develops wisdom and self-awareness.
With what objectives do customers come to you most often?
There are people who have tangible goals - I want to do this or that , or less tangible: I want to feel this . Beyond the specific objectives, people want to know a more advanced version of them. They want more power to share what they believe.
For example, I have a client who wants to be seen as an authority because she will lead a great team. There are others who move from an operational position to a leadership position and want to remain authentic and aligned with their values. I work with leaders who wonder how to get feedback and how to confront people with uncomfortable news from the "I'm here to help you " position.
People feel responsible for how others feel, sometimes they can't trust that feedback will help the team get better.
Others are very task-oriented and want to understand relationships more, to feel closer to people. My client base is mainly in the corporate area.
You talk a lot about courage in organizations. Can you give me some examples?
I have several definitions, but one always comes to mind: to talk about something that everyone sees, but no one dares to put on the table. If we empower people to have courage and talk about what matters, not just to those in authority, but to all those who care about the organization, we will create a better environment for everyone. If the world does not use courage, culture becomes something uncomfortable, which does not bring out the best in us.
The coaching mindset is the belief that there is always a better version that you can access through determination, by loving and respecting people.
What about fear?
We need to train leaders to be coaches. I would be happy to see the leaders who want to stay in the organization, going on a coaching course.
Coaching is the new language of leadership. When it comes to not being afraid, to being heard, to express our passions, to be seen, we need a coaching mindset. This level of consciousness, that has coaching at the center, is a higher level from which you see the world and yourself . We promote another way of looking at people and ourselves, in which skills are irrelevant and come easily, because they come on this mindset.
This mindset is about how you see yourself, it is the belief that there is always a better version that you can access by decision, by loving and respecting people, regardless of their behavior. I'm not saying we tolerate behavior we don't like.
This mindset also involves the way you see the world, if you have this mindset you can't think "it's not up to me, it's not my responsibility ". You realize that everything is connected, and it may not come to you today, but it will come tomorrow. If we don't think like that, we take our responsibility elsewhere and we know, in coaching, that no one comes to save us. We will be the ones to save ourselves.
How can we better manage our emotions? I notice this topic of emotional intelligence more and more present and I am curious about your perspective.
I'm a fan of the co-active coaching process principle - I've learned that you have permission to feel whatever you feel and that means giving a name to that emotion, seeing where it is in the body and knowing it's ok. What happens to emotions is that we do not let ourselves feel some of them, considering that they are not okay, such as anger or sadness, so they persist. If we have a thought, something along the lines of " I should always be positive, I should not feel that way ", this removes something from us. You can think instead "it's ok, to feel that way, I have the ability to feel that it will be fine, even if it's not like that now ". It's about allowing yourself to feel, to identify within the body, to stay with the emotion for a while. You will realize that nothing is happening to you.
What's the bravest thing you've ever done? 🙂
I turned down money when my financial situation was challenging and it was because I prioritized my principles. I gave up security because it was more important to my soul.
What stories do we tell ourselves that don't support us? What are the limiting beliefs most often heard in coaching?
There are some basics - " If I fail, it means I'm a failure . " And then “ if people don't like me, if they don't like what decisions they make, I won't survive. Everything I do must be accepted . " It is our primary need to belong. Who am I in those moments?
There are people who think they have to be smart, more than others, to be accepted. Criticize people a lot, find mistakes. One of the clients thinks that he has to do everything, that is, if people come to him, he has to give them solutions. So, in his case, when the team asks for his help, it's not about connecting, it's about giving them something. And then I challenge him to revisit the idea of connection.
Another limiting belief is: " People asking for help are incompetent " - if you have a leader with such beliefs, he will not ask for help. And in today's world, which is so complex, not being able to ask for help is a disaster, you just can't help it.
We have created organizations that are not suitable for people, focused on tasks and doing, not on relationships and being.
How can we bring more heart into organizations? While I was in the corporate environment, I saw a lot of how the mind was put on a pedestal, and the heart left behind.
We need to change our culture from a transactional to a relational one.
Let's understand that the result comes from co-creation. When culture is transactional, we don't see other people, a person is irrelevant compared to numbers.
We need to change the conversations and lead them more towards their passions, to where they find their purpose, what inspires them, what makes them come to work, what brings them the strength to be together.
And yes, you can say that you don't have time for such discussions, only that when you say " we don't have time ", it means that something else is more important. We need to prioritize these kind of discussions, so that we have people involved, who work with heart.
A belief such as " I'll find someone else if you don't want to " is not the best starting point. Let's not see people as a means to a end, but let’s go deeper into conversations and, perhaps, to invest in coaching. It's not easy, but that's the only way to change such a culture.
When I was young, mental health topics were not on the table. Today, going to a psychologist is natural. We have created organizations that are not suitable for people, focused on tasks and doing, not on relationships and being. So the result is that the person does not feeling well in that environment and we will be talking more and more about mental health. To fix this we need to heal the root, we need to change the way we operate and what we respect.
How can we support people to live more connected to their soul?
I had my first discussion about values when I was 35 years old. I think it's a bit late, until then I didn't even know what they were. I think if we talk about this earlier, it can help us define what we want to do, what is important to us. I was raised in a loving family, but I never talked about values. We talked about being good at school, what happens there, everything being very practical. It was not a discussion about " what inspires you, what excites you ?". If we open these discussions through coaching, education, thinking about how to involve schools and teachers, we can help young people to build an image about themselves and their values, in order to make better decisions.
For people to change, they have to take a break.
How do people change, how does change take place?
I think they change by their own will. If they're not open, I don't think they will. I think it changes through reflection - it is said that we learn from experience, but in fact we change through reflection upon experience. If I don't stop to consider, I miss a lot of learning.
For people to change, they have to take a break. They must be eager to learn, to talk to them. As a famous quote says, "All problems come from the fact that man cannot sit alone with himself in a room."
Coaching is about that: about being with you and reflecting - about you and your place in the world. If you can't do that, I don't know if you can change that much. True change comes from a conscious approach to it.
What do you think is necessary for global evolution now? How would you coach for humanity as a client?
What a powerful coaching question! I think the first question would be: “ what conversations should not remain open? ”. No steps are needed for change if we ask the right things, change happens automatically.
So I would start with " what do we really need to talk about?" If we think that the answers are based on courage, can you imagine what topics would be on the list? Everything people see and don't like.. Among the topics I would see " technology - does it serve humanity or not ?", The working environment, how much we work, the purpose of the institutions.
I recently read a quote from Martin Luther King - " We have flown the air like birds and swum the sea like fishes, but have yet to learn the simple act of walking the earth like brothers." I think it would be a discussion about equality, different races, about the curiosity about the cultures of others. What we can learn by being exposed to different ways of life without judging people.
What conviction about yourself or about life did you have and don't have now?
"If I ask for help, I'm incompetent . " Now, I have different perspective that says, “Even if I don't like to ask for help, I know I don't deserve less for it. I know that my satisfaction and success depend on asking for help. "
What rituals do you have to get along with yourself?
Basically something I learned in the co-active leadership course - Shintaido. It involves focusing, setting your intention for the day that begins. It involves movement, turning back to the 4 directions of the world and taking energy from each, centering and setting the intention for the day. It is a good exercise to wake up and have an intention of joy, empathy or reflection. The day is focused on that. The universe is going in incredible directions and you can recognize that more easily.
What do you read, who do you admire or follow?
Robert Keagan - "Immunity to change", is a book about limiting beliefs
Peter Block - "The answer to how is yes" - resonates a lot with his depth and reflections
Cecil Maxwell Cade and Nona Coxhead - "The awakened mind" - about meditation, where our brains are and how they impact our lives and how we can reach our potential
Joe Dispenza - "Getting emotionally branded", about the idea of getting used to an emotion and how to get out of it
Why would anyone choose to study coaching at the PwC Academy?
It is one of the richest coaching programs - it has something for everyone. It teaches you that the choice is yours, because the offerings are large, so it is your responsibility to say: I will choose this or that. It is suitable for those who want to be a coach in the area of life, but also for those who are internal coaches or leaders who want to develop their coaching skills.
It has the balance to open you up and give you tools to work with employees as well. Some are very earthly, others intuitive and from a spiritual area.
It is a school where a lot is practiced, accredited by ICF.
What would you ask yourself and I didn't ask you? And please answer 🙂
What are your limiting beliefs?
We become addicted to certain structures: how we work, what plans we make and I wonder what would happen if I got rid of them - if I were brave to the end. If I didn't work at all, if I wrote a book, if I talked more, without being obsessed with what life should look like according to some structures. I do many things that I like, but I also do some that I have to do and I wonder if I really have to do those things or if another level of courage is possible.
This article first appeared in www.ancabanita.com on February 17th 2021